Flyers and cover

This is something that came up during the Plymouth trip...

The chaos space marine winged daemon prince was in front of some space wolf terminators and a unit behind the DP shot at the terminators - it was deemed he couldn't take a cover save as the daemon prince was flying.

It got me thinking... if it would work one way it would work the other i.e. if it's up in the air the flyer wouldn't need line of sight to anything to shoot would it? So I looked it up and couldn't find anything, essentially I ttink flyer models are treated the same as every other model ad the fact that it's flying has no effect on cover LOS or anything - those rules still stand. It seemed pretty unanimous on the other team when I questioned it at the time; so am I missing something?

I half agree with your point. The first thing to bear in mind is a flying base. Anything thats flying should be ona flying base and then everything is clearer in my mind. Off the top of my head a flying base is 6 inces tall? So any model that is shooting behind this flyer, therefore has free line of sight and there is no cover save. This is because you trace the shot from the gun barrell and base it off that. If it were to have cover saves then one could argue the same could be true other wise of, say a deff dread weapon begind gretchin.

Now bearing this in mind, the flyer is therefore shooting from 6 inches high too. This is likely to cause few cover saves because of the scale of most terrain in the 40k world. But if something actually was in the way, then a cover save would be granted. ie, the strom raven shoots into a squad of eldar who are hidden ina building - they would get the full cover save or a storm talon shooting at gretchin behind mega nobz (which if i recall are terminator sized).

The real issue with Daemon princes and other flyers is that the MC's are not supplied with a flyinf base and so it's a bit of imagination. Always assume a normal flyer and it should be OK.

This is all on the assumption of course, that MC's do actually fly like fliers. As I have neither fliers not flying MC's I could be wrong but I think a flyer is a flyer is a flyer, and as soon as you need 6's to hit, the tules should be the same.

The problem there being you have used both the words imagination and rules.

flying MC's largely aren't on flying bases, the only one I'm aware of not just standing on the ground in the tyranid Hive Tyrant and he isn't exacly off the ground, he's supported on his tail.

From what I can see the rules state you use the model for all line of sight purposes, if you start guessing where models are for that purpose that spot is undoubtedly going to change, plus your also departing from what the actual model would allow/ disallow (in the case of proxies).

The gretchin point is moot - the rules for that were never in question. But by the same login a unit of longfangs on the top floor of a ruin shooping at a unit on the ground with a stormraven in the air between would have allow a cover save then yes?

And yes a flyer is a flyer is a flyer, and I concur the rules should be the same - which means not altering the line of sight and cover saves etc with imagination.

I'm not big on the rules for flyers and flying MC's either which is why I ask - don't have the models so haven't really used them until recently. If there is something that alters the TLOS then let me know.

I hope your wrong in that you use the base that was given. some models are obviously multiple editions old when both technology (thinking metal here) could not have been supported. Plus, it means that its only from the go.codex and Strom raven that you have any real fliers. I have doubts i am right because im being logical, something you can't assume with a gw game. Although i suppose the arguement would be they are not flyong as high as don't they o my go 12 to 24 rather than the proper flying range? Looks like i have something to look up tonight....

I see no other choice that using the base you're given, otherwise your guessing which is going to be inconsistent. Yes there are models that are multiple edition old - I have fliers in my dex without a model even!

That isn't a situation that's exclusive to flyers though....

I see your point from a logical aspect but when you take it to the extreme it become illogical. I.E you have to guess the future shape and height of a model yet to be made, and hire a little phillipino boy to stand next to the table holding the model in the correct position for consistency.

The tervigon is the perfect example - it was always assumed to be the same size as a carnifex as thats the way the fluff reads, when the models released it's literally double the size, but until then you just use what you have.

Ok now I know little about other fliers, those I have seen; deffjets stormtalon/raven all have stands and I have yet to see any others as far as I know with the exception of the daemon prince of Tallis - which is a proxy is it not? Therefore making line of sight fairly straightforward normally? Now I've just looked at the actual chaos model on GW and it occurred to me - is the daemon an actual flier or more of a hoverer? Ie can it "zoom" 36 inches or not? One would imagine creatures would fly/swoop a lot lower than the stormraven for example anyway in much the same way planes fly at higher altitude than birds do and therefore the models do actually represent the necessities of line of sight.
My issue with them stems more from their (my) weapons systems and proximity to targets with line of sight ie my missiles; while technically I have a target in front of them, it's been argued that it was too close at too steep an angle to actually be able to shoot! Now while I'm of the belief that fliers should be much higher, what's to stop me angling the stand in such a way that it would fly similarly to an apache (nose down) and therefore give me an advantage??

Flying MC's are a separate unit type fro flyers but again we're wandering into the what is fluff and what is rules area here...

There is only 1 flying MC that has an actual "6th edition style" model all the chaos ones DP, fateweaver, bloodthirster are old style walking models with wings sellotaped on to them, which is where Taff seems to be coming from.

Yes your flyers have very different rules with LOS as you have firing arcs and what not to worry about as well as not being able to shoot through your own hull, It's something a lot of people struggle to grasp and to be fair I just keep my mouth shut 9/10 when someone makes a miracle shot through their own hull than have to explain that one to them! But no modelling it at an angle like that would be modelling for advantage which is a big no no. How about I model my Trygon bursting out the ground? Half of it is still in the ground though so it's half the size and can hide behind a rhino now...

In terms of Tallis' proxy - I have no issues with it. The actual DP model is a walker anyway from what I can see so gamewise it doesn't appear to be much different either. Also I'd say if we're allowing proxies we can't dick with their size when it comes to line of sight etc - Rich your marines are representing terminators which are actually on a bigger base therefore if you had the real models that unit would grant me a cover save so I'm gonna roll one anyway. it's not an area I think we should get into either play the gae accepting the proxies for what they are or don't play.

My question was simply is there anything in the rulebook that alters TLOS for flyers/ flying MC's for cover/ LOS - I couldn't find anything but as it was fairly unanimous with everyone else on the day I wanted to check I haven't missed anything...

That turned into a longer post than it was meant to be... I like doing these dots.... apparently... I had to delete some as it looking silly...

Oh no I wasn't complaining about the proxy at all - hell I wouldn't be playing if it wasn't allowed!! I was merely trying to suggest that for Saturday, we were probably wrong and right; Tallis' model is probably close to the right size but I think the point we didn't follow up on was that to represent, there wouldn't be any crap joining it to the ground hence giving the line of sight underneath

Sorry was accusing you of moaning just making a point generally! If we allow proxies we allow them full stop no "well if it was the real model..." and actually it would still be connected to the ground fro the look of the GW site it's a walking model same as all the others.

On another random point I was right about JoTWW (that thing that dropped your dreadknight down a hole) just looked it up in the codex, you do get a -1 modifier. it was the shooting through the hull of a randraider that made me think of it - I'm starting to wonder about that guy...

Yeah I agree - that's where it got blurry; because it was a proxy we treated it differently - "we proxied the proxy" if you will which we probably shouldn't have done; like you said accept them for what they are wholly or not at all (sounds like bloody marriage!)

I started writing this before Stryph and Rellik posted again and damit I'm going to see it though.


Your point Rellik is really several points in one, so I hope to clarify them one by one, including the original post.

Proxies
Not even an issue. The DP model is slightly wider then the proxy, but is shorter, Pro and con. The Proxy has wings anyway so there is little to worry about. Or am I missing something?

As Stryph said - it's an all or nothing kind of thing. Especially when it comes to weapon choices. Either we all do, or non of us do. In which case my Eldar are doomed and I need to switch to marines now! If we do head towards these tournament rules I shall start demanding a minimum of three colours and basic basing before I play an army too! It wasn't pleasant. Let's not do this or worry about that too much....



Where can you shoot?
I have not heard this arguement before in terms of up and down movement? I had assumed that all the weapons would be able to fire between minimum and maximum range e.g. 0"- 48" for a las cannon. Much as Stryph poo pooed my imagination you do still need it for some aspects of the game - Jink for one. I would imagine that the gunner and pilot can move up and down on approach to be able to hit this stuff. Also, on page 72 of the rule book it states

"In rare cases where it matters, assume guns can swivel vertically up to 45 degrees, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45 degrees".


The angle of your model to try and benefit your line of site
This is as much a disadvantage as an advantage. Sure you can angle it, but to check line of sight

"trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel"

As per above there is leeway here, but you still have to see the model within the 45 degrees. You do a dive bomb pose and your not going to see other flyers or some that are right in front of you.

As such there are few rules to stop you doing it, but it does have consequences. Put your banner bearer on a two inch rock platform and he is now two inches taller. And therefore much easier to see and harder to grant a cover save too!

The Fire arcs
Whether I agree with side sponsons or not, the angle of arcs are quite clear on page 72 thanks to diagrams.

- hurricane bolters have a 45 degree arc
- the pivot mounted turret on the top has a 180 degree shot due to piss poor planning on the model.
- the guns in front of the cock pit has a 45 degree (ish) angle. I say ish because the gun does move which should make it a tad easier to see
- the missiles face forward. Therefore they can fire forward only

If we're being pendantic all the targeting mechanisms are on the front as well (infront of the cock pit and possibly at the end of the wings - they might be lights though!)

The reason they are stuck this way is the limitations of movement in the flyer itself. Unlike a missile launcher on a marine, the flyer is stuck in arcs, as are its weapons. Plus there was a reason they stopped doing that on the old red baron type planes!

Is the demon actually a flier or hoverer?
Well this is a massive difference, which makes the answer easy - Neither! It' a flying MC which (I know know) has it's on rules

The eldar vehicles, space marine land speeder and (I think) necron vehicles are all hoverers, or skimmers. They have there own set of rules which are pretty simple.

A flyer is different - hence why a storm raven has the two separate modes.

But, going back to the original post....
No one really knows, and that is the issue.

I will not accept that because a model is older or created for an edition of the game that did not have these things, that means it is a different set of rules. The Tervigon example is a stretch because every model is getting larger - whether they had an existing model or not. Look t my metal and finecast ranger. It looks like the Justice league took a superhero field trip. Or, better yet, Look at the newer and older carnifex. The older one certainly gains advantages in hiding. But I'm not trying to bicker. Just to say that I can't accept that an older model should suffer because it wasn't supplied with a base or dimensions for two editions time.

That said GW have made such piss poor job of explaining so many things it that I am now doubting myself. Or have they....

You see, now I read it, I think that they did explain it fairly well, and it is my own ignorance that might be in the way,

Flying MC's have two modes, like a flyer - gliding and swooping. NOT flying and hovering. That says to me they re not the same thing and therefore cannot be considered together.

Gliding "moves, runs and glides like a jumping MC". I assume this means a jet pack type thing? 12" moves over the terrain, standard charger or 6" move with HOW jet pack charge?

Swooping is completely different from either gliding or flying.

It is my opinion therefore that MC's do not behave in the same way as flyers and therefore cannot be assumed to occupy the same airspace as flyers.

Due to the lack of evidence I am forced to agree with Stryph that it is where it is.

Make no mistake, I think it's wrong on every level - it's in the air but you can't see past it, it's in the air but cover saves are given for sandbags in the way of their shot etc... it doesn't advantage anyone.

Hope this helps someone somewhere somehow!

Right so, the Big Rule Book states:

Line os Sight Pg8.
"... For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight line, unblocked line from it's eyes to any part of the target's body (the head, torso, arms or legs)...

Then it goes on to say this excludes weapons, banners, other ornaments, similarly with wings and tails.

Own Unit Pg8 (The Expection)
Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of there own unit.

Intervening Models Pg18
If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit, it receives a 5+ cover save (CS).

So in my humble opinion using the OPs example, I come to the following conclusion:
The Space Wolves Terminators would have got a cover save.
Is the CS better than their Armour Save? No.
Better than their Invuln? No.
We all know you take the best save available to you.
(If it was a blob of orcs/cultists it probably would have made a difference)

So how have I come that that conlusion?
The Flying Monstrous Creature model is not on "flying" base to start with.
Therefore the model is blocking LoS between the models.

This also means the for Flying Monsterous Creatures, that if you cannot see the model you cannot shoot it.
(Works both ways).

Admittedly this would negate some of the units in a shooting phase that being able to target it, thus reducing the chances for a grounding test.

Similarly with Skimmers and other "floatly" things, they too would block LoS.
(Unless it states it in the codex?)

Well put!! Sometimes being the noob I wonder whether its just a case of far too much detail expected from a game that's just for fun although having said that GW have been around long enough to realise! As for flying mc's, it would make far more sense that they didn't follow flyer rules as such with much better manoeuvrability!
As for the weapons I have complete understanding of the guns/angular projections etc except for the missiles - it's completely my hang up because of studying modern fighters and weapons systems a bit and purely that if a target can be seen a missile can be fired at it but ill get over it eventually

and I thought I got carried away with my post

Proxies - I agree, just thought I'd throw it in the ring as it's kindof part of what we were talking about so thought I'd put it to bed early

Fire arc - the stormraven (as i recall - one of them anyway) has a blind spot somethin like 6" in front of it where it's guns (due to the firing arcs (including the pivots) can't target anything, due to that I'd say (personally) tilting it to specifically overcome it's shortcoming is modelling for advantage. The imagination bit I poo poo'd (and always will) because it was used in the context of discussing rules - yes you use your imagination to make the game more cinematic in your head but not for the interpretation of rules - that way madness lies! I also see it as one of those - where would you draw the line? type things that's okay cos it makes sense to me but that bit doesn't so you can't - although that one you can... 99% I don't mind one way or the other, they're your toys do what you want with them, it's just not something I'd do myself specifically to make it easier to shoot something.

last bit - I don't really understand how you say they suffer being older models. They still have new rules but the model may look different if it were updated - it also may look different if I worked as a designer for GW - more like a blob. Your working on the assumption it's a disadvantage in some way when as you say with the Carnifex the old one actually has an advantage in a lot of ways.

I think it's ruled this way for ease - if you start saying it's flying - where is it flying, where do I draw to for line of sight, how do I test range etc etc

yes gliding is jump infantry basically - they have HOW from being an MC anyway apart from that exactly the same.

I'm trying to get to grips with the flying MC's as I was under the misconception firing 2 guns meant I couldn't use a psychic power when it's only psychic shooting (witchfire) it limits - thats a 5th to 6th rules boo boo. Once I realised that the flying hive tyrant made it into my Kill List (what I think is the Most powerul list I can put out) so gotta learn the rules for them now!

Oh Rellik - modern aviation can't be used as an example! Or is the UN hiding powerful psykers somewhere to add a little something something to a specific type of bolt round, lol

They train the psykers in fort knox - the gold reserves have been gone for years - what did you think they were doing in there!!

I never used it as one! Besides all physical weapons are based on modern day equivalents with different ammo/characteristics anyway?!
(The psykers are everywhere integrated among us - seen MIB??) lol

Bloodlust_Rellik wrote:

Besides all physical weapons are based on modern day equivalents with different ammo/characteristics anyway?!

depressignly not much seems to have advanced in 38000 years!