My Nob is soon to get more use!

so it seems that when i hide my nob at the back of a boyz squad to protect him from shooting, and then move him in during the I1 initiative step, he is also protected from challenges - meaning all you smelly players who have meant my nob has only made about 3 attacks in 4 games cant get your kicks anymore!

my nobs can no longer be "challenge locked" out of the entire game!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/509276.page

Summary:

- a challenge can only be accepted if you can fight or strike blows.
- you can only fight or strike blows if you are within 2" of a b2b contact model.
- if you are outside of the 2", you therefore arent eligible to be challenged.

details ive pulled from the thread:


orchewer wrote:
Are big choppas on Ork Nobz more viable now with challenges? To mean it'd seem a waste to put a power klaw on the Nob only to have it squashed before it could ever swing it.
The trick with orks is that you have to learn how to manage your challanges.

Labmouse42 wrote:
You want to start your PK nob more than 2" from the combat, so he cannot accept a challange. During the I1 pile in phase, you want to have him be able to get within 2" of a friendly model so he can swing that big powerclaw of his.

While its not perfect, its lets you skip getting challanged out by the marine sergeant for a round and do your powerfist damage to the squad instead of one guy.

andystache wrote:
I'm fairly certain Labmouse42 is wrong about the challenges. You issue a challenge, your opponent can accept or deny if they accept you attempt to move the models in base to base in the following order:

1. Swap the challenging model with a friendly model in base with the challenged
2. Swap the challenged model with a friendly model in base with the challenger
3. Swap one from each in base to base with each other if within 3"
4. Get models as close as possible to base to base then fight the challenge as if they were in base to base.

The distance rules are only based on the swap out not issuing the challenge itself.

I'm at work so I'm working from memory, but I'm usually pretty good at that

AresX8 wrote:
Labmouse is correct. You are not.

Here's the breakdown from an older post of mine: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/456724.page#4506193

AresX8 wrote:
Here's the breakdown of how he can't accept the challenge or be picked out by Precision Strikes:

1. "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck." pg. 64. This means this is before the initiative step pile-in moves.

2. "A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:

- During its initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During its initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat." pg 23.

3. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." pg. 64. This means your Nob can't issue a challenge either, because of clause 1.

4. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges." pg. 64. This means Nobs that are not engaged as per clause 2 cannot accept challenges. Cannot accept challenges != refusing challenges.

5. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached.... Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons [Emphasis mine] can modify a model's Initiative." pg. 23. This means that a Nob piles in at I1 because of hisPK and also attacks at I1 because of the PK.

6. "Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking, rather than following the normal rounds for Wound allocation." pg. 63. This means that a Nob cannot be picked out in combat because he is not engaged as per clause 2.

From wrote:
I did not know that if you were 2" outside of a melee that a challenge couldn't be accepted. Could you cite the page # for these rules Labmouse42? Thanks for explaining why Initiative isn't that big of a factor in most situations.

Labmouse42 wrote:
p64 BRB
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

p64 BRB
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.

p64BRB
"Challanges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-pahse, before any blows are struck"

p23 BRB
"A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
- During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one more enemy models
- During its Initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one more enemy models"

Ergo, if your Nob is halfway in your blob, and after the charge he is 5" away from enemy models, he cannot issue or accept a challenge. During his pile in phase, he will move up 3" and then be in range to use his power claw on rank and file.


Edit : AresX8 already answered it. He did a better job that I did anyway.

Now that is interesting in many ways.

I didn't realise this at all. What a mistake on all our parts.

But the good point is it will only be for one round of combat and only if the nob can reach. In addition I had completely forgotten about precision striking and targeting him. Depending upon his positioning and my characters positioning I could take him out well before this too....

To me it changes nothing. Nobs with power claws and 29 toughness 4 body guards were always an amazing troop option to have. Far better than any other troop I can think of (other than the broken tervigon) simply because you had to cause 29 wounds to get him. With precision striking and reminders regarding who can kill who it's all the same really.

Shoot him and be done with it. Shoot him with a lucky volley from a character and you can even pick him out of the unit. Shoot him with war walkers and the chances are it makes no difference what's infront of him.....

But these rules against a chaos Lord for example are much more interesting as clever placement of the Lord will mean he can skip the usual chaos spiel (always challenge) and actually fight a unit.

sure - agreed, but this way at least i know he will swing at least once in every combat - for the past 4-5 games hes been lucky to swing at all!

against striking scorpions and marines especially its critical as the 4 S9 AP2 instakill attacks with precision is exactly what he is there for.

not a mistake on anyones part - noone knew! i think my 1k vs you & my Stryph Blood Angels game might have gone differenty had we known, but then theres another dozens rules im sure we are doing wrong in return!

thats a really good point for chaos!

This is one of those rules I've been aware of in the back of my mind but gets lost in the unending mess which is the assault phase and piling in, which I fudge on a contast basis as I can't be arsed with the 20 minutes complex combats would take in pile-in moves if you do it properly. Try doing it with single model MC's that srike first - marines/terminators in a column won't even get to strike me back.

Had one the other night where half a unit of marines ended up unable to get back into combat using their piles-ins, there's probably something about how to do it somewhere but we ended up using the "shrug shoulders push models in, worry about it later" approach!

It does however make the nobs a bit more viable as they have lost so much by losing their ability to hide in a mob. Orks probably have the most utility to use this way of hiding by sheer weight of numbers.

Always, always, always forget precision striking too!

i think precision strikes and shots are something we all forget - we'll have to make it our mission to remind each other!

at least i now know that my nobs will get at least one turn of combat before they are challenge locked.

its gratifying not only for that fact, but also because i am always so careful about the positioning of my nob in the boyz mob, and already position him 5" away from the enemy and always leave a clear path for him to enter combat at initiative step 1 (not that he ever gets to do anything!), so i now have vindication for it, and i now banish all the thoughts i was having about equipping him with a 5 point big choppa (+2S, AP-) instead of a power klaw to save points.

I think it's one of those thing that most people have just overlooked initially due to the pile in mess, that I am still trying to get my head around - It seems really simple until you actually start doing it - I should pay more attention to it as it's probably to my detriment what with me playing an assault orientated army! This would allow me to target specific characters in challenges now I've started running the swarmlord..... hmmmm.....

Also largely my groups are all the same so it's easier for me to go ahhhh don't worry about it!

You have inspired me to sit down and work out the pile in phase properly Sir! I mean assault phase...

Also if anyone has a quick answer to half a unit being left outside of combat.... I assume they stay out in the middle of nowhere (although technically locked in combat) until they are eventually able to pile back into combat again at their initiative step in the next assault phase? It may be in the rulebook but I can never ever find what I'm looking for in there!

yeah, every member must make a 3" move to try and get into b2b or within 2" of a b2b model every time they get a pile in...this is mandatory and cant be skipped.

if after the enforced 3" move you still arent within 2" of a b2b model, you sit out that combat phase until the next one.

I beleive, though am by no means sure that you cannot be killed if thats the case as you arent in combat - the enemy can only kill that whcih is in b2b or is 2" behind a b2b model.

i might have to check that when i next get my rulebook out though....its very rare, and only affect huge squads, and usually a squad that big wont ever get whittled away enough for that question to come into play anyway.

In fatc all of this is rare, as 2" behind a b2b model is 3-4 models deep if you cram them all in, so youll really struggle not to get everyone in whether the opponents in a straight line or bunched together (meaning you can circle the prey increasing your surface area with each ring.

It's something that hasn't come up for me before and I hope it doesn't again as it's a bit odd. Really odd bit is some of the unit was in combat and some was out... It was caused by a single base mc and a unit of terms gants assaulting a line of marines.

I believe you can still kill models that aren't in the 2" bubble they are prevented from attacking but not from getting killed as you kill the unit but the models attack by my understanding.

Yeah stryph is right, even if models aren't engaged as they are more than 3" away from b2b contact, they can still suffer wounds as they are allocated to a unit rather than individual models.......

Further to this, I've written up a Blood Angel list that I'm going to play with this weekend containing mixed initiative/ save units together with a transport, assault vehicle, flyer, walker and fortification in an attempt to finally perfect the assault rules along with the vehicle rules (which I have made many attempts at learning but they never seem to stay in my head for some reason).

I'll probably end up playing it against Liam who is still learning the rules for his orks, will this be the longest game in the history of the world?

Maybe....

Ha don't be daft, surely that would be Liam and I playing........

Was this ever checked and verified by the way? I was more inclined to say that the wounds wouldn't have rolled over as you physically couldn't reach them (in the same way as you can't shoot what you can't see/have range to kill).