1750 Space Wolves

Ok folks, so messed around with the wolves codex and this is what ive come up with!

Basic Rules

• I didnt want vehicles
  
• Wherever its an option a model must take wolf claws or the mark of the wulfen (which is d6+1 rending attacks but ignores any special weapons you have)
  
• had to have a full unit of fenrisian wolves, a unit of thunderwolves and the most fenrisian wolf bodyguards that are possible

So, here we are!

HQ

Canis Wolfborn (205)
with 2 fenrisian wolves, all fenrisian wolves in 12" use his Ld value and are troops. The number of enemies in base contact can be his Attacks

Wolf Priest (143)
Runic Armour (2+ armour, 5+ inv vs psykers), with a storm bolter, meltabombs, crozius arcanum, fang of morkai (unit is fearless), wolf amulet (4+ inv), wolftail talisman (5+ save vs psykers for whole unit) oath of war (preferred enemy) and saga of the hunter (unit can outflank and has stealth)

Troops

15 Blood Claws (260)
one with power weapon and plasma pistol, 2 meltaguns

10 Grey Hunters (160)
2 with plasma guns

15 fenrisian wolves (128)
with cyberwolf

Elite

Lone Wolf (90)
with 2 Fenrisian wolves, melta bombs, Terminator armour with 2 wolf claws (lightning claws that can reroll either to hit or to wound rolls each turn).
Has feel no pain, eternal warrior, fearless, and can always reroll missed hits against MC's, walkers and t5 models. Also doesnt ever yield a VP if killed (but does if he survives)

4 Wolf Guard (153)
power armour, 2 with wolf claws and combi meltas, 1 with with storm bolters and mark of the wulfen, 1 with stormbolter, melta bombs and wolf claw.

Iron Priest (155)
with thunder hammer, servo arm, runic armour, (2+) frag & krak grenades, thunderwolf mount, and 4 cyberwolf bodyguard

Fast Attack

3 Thunderwolf Cavalry (195)
all have rending attacks. One has wolf claw and plasma pistol, one has a bolt pistol and melta bombs, one has mark of the wulfen. Fenrisian wolves within 12" of unit can reroll LD tests

Heavy Support

Longfangs squad 160
5 long fangs with 3 x missile launcher and 2 x plasma cannon
can split fire across different units


What do you think? Ive tried not to go uber cheese and have a rune priest outflank with jaws of the world wolf as tempting as it was!

ill have to buy a lot of wolves! (the cyberwolves alone are £10 and i have 5 of them!)

It looks like a rather hard hitting list! Kill everything before it gets too close to you musty be the motto!

Lots of different painting techniques though so should be a big challenge both yo learn how to play and to improve your painting!

Can a long fang unit really have 5 heavy weapons? Thats 1 more than al the other marines. They have 4 and a sergeant.

yeah, the codex entry says 1-5 long fangs and 1 squad leader - each long fang other than the leader must take a heavy weapon. ive used marks roster editor too so it should be sound!

ive taken a leaf out of my orkses tactica and made eveything an offensive threat (other than perhaps the grey hunters), and put in lots of threats! it doesnt matter what you focus on - whatever you dont focus on is just as capable of making a mess of you. plus this list is fast!

the 3 thunderwolves will ride with canis and the iron priest, and have 6 wolves with them to act as their shield (4 have T5 and 4+ armour), with the ironpriest acting as a tank behind them with 2+ save which should see them into combat...a lot of points there, but hard to kill.

if you concentrate on them you have 15 bloodclaws and 15 wolves chasing you down, both of which make a right mess on the charge.

and from turn 2 ill have my very own chosen outflanking - 4 wolfguard plus the wolf priest chaplain coming in from the sides with a few combi meltas and meltabombs, who should be very hard in combat whether they charge or not. (counterattack and stormbolters with lightning claws are a nice extra) they get preferred enemy and all space wolves have acute senses too which should make them reliable and come in when and where i want them to

backing them up is the longfangs with 3 rocket launchers and 2 plasma cannons, (who are pretty tasty i will say), and the grey hunters who are strong defensively and ive given them range and AP2 support with the plasma guns

and dont forget my terminator lone wolf. he has to be on his own except for his 2 wolves giving him 2 portable wounds. hes got 2 wounds (4 with the wolves), 2+ armour, 5+ invuln and feel no pain, cant be instakilled and is fearless. seems like an easy kill on his own but hes definitely not, and as a kicker, if you do decide to kill him, youve lost yourself a VP!
if you let him get in though hes got 4 wolf claw attacks, and if he finds a T5, MC or walker, i can reroll all failed to hit and wound rolls
i might get rid of a melta bomb somewhere and give him a frost axe/wolf claw combo rather than twin wolf claws...without the rule book, by memory wolf claws and frost axes arent specialist wepons, so i get the extra CC attack bonus having both. having the axe gives me + 2S for taking on bigger brutes

oooooh, i just learned that space wolves can have twice the HQ's as everyone else! i always wondered how the guy in plymouth managed it!

I need to get me a read of that codex,lol

I really struggle to look at Space Wolf lists - they just seem to have everything and do everything all at the same time, pretty sure it's impossible to write a bad list out of that codex, and I say that as a Blood Angel player as well!!

Grey hunters are awesome, tac marines on crack, speed cocktail.

Really though I don't think you can go wrong, there are power builds in the book forsure but there's nothing i've seen that's horrible. Your a decent general so you won't have a problem no matter what you choose so just stick to the models, flavour you like and do't be tempted to the dark side. That's what I'm trying to do with my crons as well - I have nids to try and win games with - want a flavourul army as well!

That's a really good way of looking at it. This army is for fluffy fun. I'm certainly not going Dark Angels to get myself a marine army.... But then, based upon what you said, I do need a winning army....

so i learnt today that the elite choice iron wolves arent independent characters meaning he cant join the thunderwolf cavalry to tank
also frost axe/wolfclaw combo doesnt work as the claw is a specialist weapon, so in order to get the extra cc attack and a choice of weapon each turn, id need a wolf claw with thunderhammer/powerfist or chainfist. real shame that.
i also learned that wolf guard can join other units as their champions instead of forming a unit

time to think up some new options!

so, here we go! (arguably this is more rounded anyway)
HQ

Canis Wolfborn: 2 fenrisian wolves 205 (with cavalry (obviously))
Wolf Priest : storm bolter, crozius arcanum, meltabombs, runic armour and saga of the hunter plus the extra wolf priest stuff listed earlier 135 (with Grey Hunter Pack A)

Troops

10 Grey Hunter Pack A with 2x plasma gun, plasma pistol, wolf standard & mark of the wulfen 200
5 Grey Hunter Pack B with meltagun 80
15 Blood Claw Pack with 2x meltaguns 230
14 Fenrisian wolves inc cyberwolf 120

Elite

Lone wolf: 2 x fenrisian wolves, terminator armour, wolf claw and chainfist 95
5 scouts: 2x boltguns, 2x plasma pistol, 1x meltagun
3 Wolf Guard Pack 169:
- Wolf Guard with greyhunter pack A: terminator armour, wolf claw, storm shield
- Wolf Guard with bloodclaw pack: terminator, powerfist, wolf claw
- Wolf Guard with Long fangs: terminator armour, storm bolter, wolf claw and cyclone missile launcher

Fast

4 Thunderwolf cavalry: 1 with stormshield, 1 with wolf claw, 1 with meltabomb and 1 with mark of the wulfen 275

Heavy

6 long fangs: squad leader with 5 x missile launcher 140

any better?

Don't really know enough about the list to say if it's good or bad (or legal)

From the wolf fluff I know (which is only the white dwarf stuff and the 6 ragnar books) all Space Wolves suck and get owned by Dark Angels regularly...

Back to the army...

"so in order to get the extra cc attack and a choice of weapon each turn, id need a wolf claw with thunderhammer/powerfist or chainfist. real shame that."

Is a Wolf claw a lightning claw? So you would have to choose weather to use the power fist or claw? At least there is no rerolls for me to have to deal with. I think you need two claws to get them?

We've talked about this before but I don't see the point in taking scouts. Maybe there is a fluff reason I cannot see? Surely the points are better maxing the blodd claws (or making two units) or increasing grey hunters B?

One thing I'm not happy about though - how on earth are 5 grey hunters and a melta gun 10 points cheaper than 5 regular marines who are not even allowed a melta gun until the units are 10 strong? Plus they have a CC weapon? And is it them who get counter attack? No wonder this used to be the power army of choice!

yeah, the wolf claw is a lightning claw that additionally allows you to reroll failed rolls to hit or wound ( choose each turn).
so if i have a chain fist and a wolf claw (2 specialist weapons), i have to choose which one to use each turn but i get an extra attack with it from having the second cc weapon.
edit: the same will apply to the wolf guard termie with the blood claws - he can choose between his power fist or wolf claw each turn depending on the opposition

Wolf scouts arent actually that terrible...they are the same cost as a grey hunter or a blood claw unfortunately, and are elite rather than troop but their special rule when arriving from reserve is:
on a roll of 1, come in from the left. On a roll of 2, the right, on a 3-6 whichever i choose including the rear table edge. As space wolves i get acute senses as an army rule making it re-rollable too.

So they will reliably be coming in on the sides or rear of my choosing with their plasma and melta goodness

So ive had to sacrifice 5 grey hunters and some plasma here and there to kit them out, i hope them to be more likely to cause effective damage by placing them with the scouts

When considered alongside the outflanking 10 grey hunters/wolf guard/wolfpriest combo too, fluff wise it feels like the wolf pack is circling in and picking off any that have strayed from the herd...




normal marines are 1 point dearer each, swapping combat squads and combat tactics instead of counter attack and acute senses. so yeah, not the best deal., but the difference between a unit of 10 is only that 1 pnt difference p/m.

with the weapons...grey hunters can only take a plasma gun, melta gun or flamer - they cant take the multimelta, plasma cannon (5 points for a plasma cannon?!?!?!) lascannon, heavy bolter ormissile launcher heavy weapons like vanilla, can
Like vanilla, the second is only available if the squad numbers 10. if you want your specials to all be free, then the first has to be a flamer just like vanilla. you then get a launcher free, we get a plasma or (short range) melta. but you also get the other heavy weapons listed for very very cheap.
the only difference is we get one special at 5 models whereas you get both at ten models. but thats a glaring wrongness that makes no sense in your codex to me
so i dont think the weapons are unbalanced - there are plusses to both armies weapon choices....its just that 1 point difference between the models, but i think thats vanilla being overpriced rather than the other way around


the wolves have a very well structured codex, and everything seems to work together well rather than having anything that strikes me as overpowered individually. theres nothing that ive read through that ive raised an eyebrow at. there is some cheese, but no more than any of the new codexes.
i would say looking at it in theory, they are en par with BA, grey knights and i guess now dark angels in terms of the strength of its codex
but the vanilla codex needs work - and repricing as they are dearer than any of the other marine codexes for what they are - all of the other marine codexes are forming an equal benchmark now i think - your turn to catch up!

Definitely needs re points from what your saying as the second element of "5" of a squad costs the same as a vanilla, yet the first 5 are less. Very odd..

I make no secret of my opinion that the long fangs getting split fire is ridiculous. I know people can point to fluff or to their age etc... but I fail to see any difference. If veterans (say stern guard) could do it for vanilla then maybe it would be balanced but this. I must say though that with exception to that, I think the SW codex is quite balanced as it is designed to be a CC force - the special rules, the gun choices etc... all point to it and I think that is a god thing.

Not sure they are on par with the blood angels though. I still see that as the best, even when you take chaos into consideration. I'm talking tournament type all comer lists here though (Land raider with assault terminators with piest, storm ravens for dreads, baal preds, fast attack vindicators etc... - PLUS MEPHISTON!!!). Fluffy ones I imagine would be quite different

I suppose with vanilla its the issue of ot being specialist. Will really be intereting if they ever do make a long range/shooty space marine codex. If they do I suspect it would have to be a new one now. But why so we need ANOTHER marine army. Should have stuck with the 5 (GK,BA, DA, SW, Smurfs) and kept the bonus ones in the SM code (Sisters of poo, BT, IF etc...) Especially considering their treatment of chaos.

i agree...vanilla/ultramarines, spacw wolves, blood angels, dark angels and grey knights is enough. black templar are probably 1 too many

Long fangs - yeah, i would say that their rule is too much for their price - 5 long fangs are 75 points with their split fire rule. 5 devastators are 90 points without it. The long fang weapons are also 5 points cheaper than devastators (10 for the lascannon actually). plus long fangs can have 1 more heavy weapon.

thats a pretty poor design i think. if mine wasnt a fluffy list. 3 units of 5 missile launcher long fangs, with a tanking terminator cyclone missile launcher wolf guard each would come to 624 points, knocking out 21 missiles per turn...thats pretty overpowered and cheap for what it is!!!!

so yeah, i guess long fangs, and jaws of the world wolf, are the 2 glaring things in the codex.



i dont think the vanilla marine codex suffers too much from its lack of specialism too much. it suffers from overpricing of the basic choices you have to make, and most of all the overpricing of your unique codexes units that are the vanguard and legion of the damned. actually ill include strenguard in that even though (at least) the blood angels can have them too).
just making those two units a viable and competetive choice would make the world of difference.

your assault terminators are cheaper than space wolves considerably though 5 thunder hammer/storm shield wolf guard are 315 points to your 200 - thats 115 points for counter attack . the wolves cant teleport either.
a lightning claw wolf guard pack is a lot more reasonable at 240, but its still 40 points more.
for perspective, 5 ork meganobs only have power klaws, no thunder hammer or storm shields, and no inv save, (but do have 2 wounds), and they are also 200 points. so vanilla terminators are well priced i think

so horses for courses - pricing it out, space wolves are too cheap in some areas, but oh so dear in others.

vanilla marines are too dear everywhere, other than your termies

I bought the dark angels codex today - ll the pints are different for both! Maybe I was to harsh!

I'd say Grey Hunters are the most OP, illogical thing in the book to be honest (ignoring the cheesefest that is jaws).

Standard tactical marine + counter attack + 2 CCW + acute senses and all for cheaper than any other marine book, tactical marine with 3 attacks in the first round of assault - why was that required? Longfangs are strangely undercosted, and the split fire thing is situational and can work against you as well as for you.

The only thing that hurts wolves now is the lack of a flyer, if they had one I'd put them above BA strength wise. They have better heavy weapons, are better in assault and can spam 2+ armour like nobodys business with Logan Grimnar. Sure BA have ephiston and theirs no doubting he's a beast but Space wolves will slaugher him in combat - due to hi not have AP2 anymore, they still have plenty

I'm probably playing them again this weekend and have been trying to read up on the rules a bit as the guy isn't the best at knowing his own rules which makes them even tougher.

there's just so much of the book that feels unnecessary, that's why it irks me. Fluff wise the wolves are full of character but when I play them all I ever hear is - oh and they have this special rule and this mark and this saga - the special rules are piled on them so high it's just silly! yeah grey Knights are a cheese fest but done in a "better way". If your gonna make someone OP just give them bigger guns, rather than pages of special rules where I have to listen to your nonsense rules all game long. It's excessive is all. Turned into a it of a rant there, can you tell I'm not fond of that book? But at the same time I like special characters and like space Wolves fluff wise - that book though... 3 years old and even with codex creep is still kicks ass, glad i didn't play it when it first came out!

From what Taff has said the DA book is well balanced along with the chaos one so hopefuly GW have got their ass in gear and are going to keep the books on an even keel - anyone else notice that att Ward was in the hobbit white dwarf and it mentioned him as having played wargames for years and didn't mention he wrote dexes while it did for another guy in the same section? am I reading into that too much or did he get a demotion?

This reply is far too long anyway, I should be doing something else....

Dark angel tactical re about 1 point cheaper when kitted like for like - 1 point for acute senses and counter attack? No wonder Xeno players hate marines,lol.

Do Wolves not have access to the Storm Talon? I'm sure there is a painted example on the box?

Your right about the balanced book. Please note that Matt Ward hasn't touched one for a while! There is no unit which screams take me take me! And nine that say - I'll get my coat. Dark Angels will not be hard to play. But i think will be really hard to play well. I can't even come up with either a 1000 point list nor a 1500 point one! What a pain - and a rare treat! In Eldar I KNEW - Farseer, War Walkers, Scatter Lasers, Dire Avengers. That was off the first reading under 6th conditions.

This makes it more fun for me though

Fortunately they can't take the storm talon, I guess they'll get their own at some point, there's been continual mention of flyer waves but a space wolf one isn't something I've heard though.

I'll be thankful for small mercies

well, i dont know enough about them yet i suppose to compare

but reading the codex i maintain i dont see anything too far out of the ordinary other than the cheese you mention.
but i dont get how logan can let you spam 2+ saves - wolf guard, as shown before, are ridiculously expensive to kit out in terminator armour...far more than vanilla, blood angels and even grey knights...it would be a very small list indeed.

Grey hunters are cheap admittedly as discussed in previous posts, but without playtesting them they dont look that bad on the surface.......
i guess from an ork perspective they look puny for an equivalent squad...25 boyz would frankly beat the crap out of a grey hunter squad at the same points value regardless of who charged.

without knowing the DA special rules, i think they are equally cheap for tacticals...80 points for a 5 man tactical squad with a plasma cannon.
times 6 is a lot of plasma cannons for 480 points

without knowing the BA codex too well either im sure you have your own things that the internet forums scream about

still, hopefully ive avoided the cheese and have gone for a wolf pack on the hunt picking off those that stray from the herd list rather than any cheese.

Hobowan wrote:

but i dont get how logan can let you spam 2+ saves - wolf guard, as shown before, are ridiculously expensive to kit out in terminator armour...far more than vanilla, blood angels and even grey knights...it would be a very small list indeed.

Well the main thing is being able to put them in other units... Without reading the codex and sitting down to do a compariosn it is too hard to say - buit vanilla termies have the following rules: Relentless, deep strike. They pay for the armour p.fist/storm bolter to make them up to 40 points. Other weapons (claws or storm shields) are free though which is a bonus. However they cannot have a mixed squad - C or range. Getting a multi use unit or putting a termie with cyclones with devs or in a tactical squad would be quite appealling - especially using the SM codex 12 man drop pod.

Hobowan wrote:

Grey hunters are cheap admittedly as discussed in previous posts, but without playtesting them they dont look that bad on the surface.......

They aren't THAT bad - they are bad compared to their equivalent in other codex's - cheaper and better. hence the bad rep. Imagine them stuck on an obkective and getting charged. 3 attacks each at S4 makes 31 attacks. The vaniall equivalent is 11. In 5th (wen you could atack out of rhinos) think of the difference that troop made, especially when compared to an assault marine - which got the same on the charge. As SW were the first to have the price drop, they got the worst rep.

Hobowan wrote:

without knowing the DA special rules, i think they are equally cheap for tacticals...80 points for a 5 man tactical squad with a plasma cannon.

True they are cheap. 85 points for a 5 man squad. But you have no sarge (or no sarge with the stats of one at least). So you are Ld 8. To add one is another 10 points - 95 now. Suddenly it's quite similar to a vanilla one. At 10 man level they cost pretty much the same as a vanilla one.

Hobowan wrote:

times 6 is a lot of plasma cannons for 480 points

It is a lot. No doubt. But, to quote Hobo " 5 man squads are too easy to kill - take 10 man squads"....Remeber as well you cannot move as they are blast weapons so no snap fire or over watch.

Hobowan wrote:

i guess from an ork perspective they look puny for an equivalent squad...25 boyz would frankly beat the crap out of a grey hunter squad at the same points value regardless of who charged.

You'd be surprised how well they do according to math hammer I have seen. Especially if they don't charge the Orks.

But this is the key here - perspective. The tervigon list seems broken. The Vukan Melta spam seems broken, Back in the day the KK wall seemed broken, a lot of what BA have access to seems OP (fast vindis???), as does a 4 hull point defiler who can regenerate hull points WTF!...... But they do try and balance it now. I think it's improving so hopefully, whoever is next (Tau or Eldar apparently), will continue this trend. But, as always, until they are all on the same ediditon, there will be seemingly broken unts.

well it's not so much that there is anything that screams crazy. It's that everything is good at everything. A heavy weapons team that can also out assault an assault unit... please... I have a similar complaint about nids - why are my little guys with guns better in assault than the ones with knives for arms?

I'm sure there are internet forums that scream stuff about BA - previously it was razor spam which is gone with hull points - no idea what it is now - I don't keep up with it anymore.

What I say about wolves is from what I've played against - Strength wise the only thing I've come across that could match wolf guard was pallys. But then wolfguard have better access to big CC weapons so I'm not sure that even holds true anymore with the rules changes. although as I say there may have been rule mistakes in the games which have scewed my perspective somewhat.

as I say I like wolves and the relative strength of the army thing doesn't bother me *that* much, it's what GW has been doing for the last few years so I'm used to it and hopefully we're turning a corner. It's the 6 hours of listening to special rules being read out that annoys me - can I roll some dice now please? Sure a lot of that is due to e not knowing wolves very well but it sure feels like a lot of special rules.

Taff is an evil ninja!!

Taffiarti wrote:

Well the main thing is being able to put them in other units... that is tasty admittedly. though you do use up an foc and pay 150-200 points for sergeants you otherwise dont have. I think thats actually a really well done rule as it goes. when you are tight on points its oh so hard to justify it when you could just keep them together

vanilla termies have the following rules: Relentless, deep strike (wolves cant deepstrike but ofc get counter attack). They pay for the armour p.fist/storm bolter to make them up to 40 points. Other weapons (claws or storm shields) are free though which is a bonus. However they cannot have a mixed squad - C or range. Getting a multi use unit or putting a termie with cyclones with devs or in a tactical squad would be quite appealling - especially using the SM codex 12 man drop pod.

true, but adding a cyclone or an assault cannon (cant have both) brings the points up even more - 350 for a 5 man cc termie squad...so being that all else you can take is storm bolters, i dont think the ability to mix the termie squad actually helps

Hobowan wrote:

Grey hunters are cheap admittedly as discussed in previous posts, but without playtesting them they dont look that bad on the surface.......

They aren't THAT bad - they are bad compared to their equivalent in other codex's - cheaper and better. hence the bad rep. Imagine them stuck on an obkective and getting charged. 3 attacks each at S4 makes 31 attacks. The vaniall equivalent is 11. In 5th (wen you could atack out of rhinos) think of the difference that troop made, especially when compared to an assault marine - which got the same on the charge. As SW were the first to have the price drop, they got the worst rep.
agreed. ill never say they arent cheap, too cheap mayhap, playtesting will tell. and agree they are cc focussed. but they do fail at heavy range support unlike their brethren, all they have is risky plasma guns.

Hobowan wrote:

without knowing the DA special rules, i think they are equally cheap for tacticals...80 points for a 5 man tactical squad with a plasma cannon.

True they are cheap. 85 points for a 5 man squad. But you have no sarge (or no sarge with the stats of one at least). So you are Ld 8. To add one is another 10 points - 95 now. Suddenly it's quite similar to a vanilla one. At 10 man level they cost pretty much the same as a vanilla one. 10 points to add marines? or am i misreading that? now that would be underpriced! grey hunter squads are only 10 points cheaper than an equivilent marine squad at 10 man too. sapce wolves also dont get sergeants other than long fangs

Hobowan wrote:

times 6 is a lot of plasma cannons for 480 points

It is a lot. No doubt. But, to quote Hobo " 5 man squads are too easy to kill - take 10 man squads"....ha ha yes, wise words! just making a point - 5 DA with a plasma cannon is better value for money perhaps than 5 grey hunters with a plasma gun for the same choice (on the assumption you dont bring a 5 man squad to assault things). Remeber as well you cannot move as they are blast weapons so no snap fire or over watch.

Hobowan wrote:

i guess from an ork perspective they look puny for an equivalent squad...25 boyz would frankly beat the crap out of a grey hunter squad at the same points value regardless of who charged.

You'd be surprised how well they do according to math hammer I have seen. Especially if they don't charge the Orks.
possibly. id still fancy 25 boyz to take out almost all opponents units! mwhahahhahaha!

But this is the key here - perspective. The tervigon list seems broken. The Vukan Melta spam seems broken, Back in the day the KK wall seemed broken, a lot of what BA have access to seems OP (fast vindis???), as does a 4 hull point defiler who can regenerate hull points WTF!...... But they do try and balance it now. I think it's improving so hopefully, whoever is next (Tau or Eldar apparently), will continue this trend. But, as always, until they are all on the same ediditon, there will be seemingly broken unts.

a very diplomatic end to the post...top marks taff

Stryph wrote:

well it's not so much that there is anything that screams crazy. It's that everything is good at everything. A heavy weapons team that can also out assault an assault unit... please... I have a similar complaint about nids - why are my little guys with guns better in assault than the ones with knives for arms?

hold on, are you talking about lootas here?

Stryph wrote:

What I say about wolves is from what I've played against - Strength wise the only thing I've come across that could match wolf guard was pallys. But then wolfguard have better access to big CC weapons so I'm not sure that even holds true anymore with the rules changes. although as I say there may have been rule mistakes in the games which have scewed my perspective somewhat.

i still dont understand this...other than counter attack, useful for one turn if you are charged, they are normal elite marines (+1A & Ld only) with the same wargear as other marines, but at +33% of the cost?
edit: they also have frost blades, which are power weapons with +1S, and wolf claws instead of lightning which reroll one set of hits or wounds) they are you, but you arent half paying for them.

points wise 7 standard build wolfguard would fight 10 standard assault termies - which more than balances the slight bonuses to their weapons

Stryph wrote:

as I say I like wolves and the relative strength of the army thing doesn't bother me *that* much, it's what GW has been doing for the last few years so I'm used to it and hopefully we're turning a corner. It's the 6 hours of listening to special rules being read out that annoys me - can I roll some dice now please? Sure a lot of that is due to e not knowing wolves very well but it sure feels like a lot of special rules.

sorry, me being painful, but again i dont get this - there simply arent that many special rules - ive read the codexes ive <ahem> borrowed from the internet and there simply isnt any more than any other codex...certainly not much more. i think your friend overexaggerates them as psychological warfare (and plays a cheesy list perhaps)

Well some of it is that they were always compared to vanilla, dark angels and pre matt ward blood angels. Compared to them there are a lot of rules. Plus I SW were a very fashionable army. Without trying to critise anyone who plays them, they were taken up by a lot of noobs. Without an insult meant - I hate Grey Knights. Because how many times have I had to grab Rellik's rule book and explain it to him! A lot of that is GW's fault as there are large grey areas (disembarking from a flying storm raven for example). But I can see what is being said. i may be wrong - but it was either them or the IG that were considered the first "Power gamer army".

I can't recall what he had his wolfguard kitted out with - but they were all ap2 (frostbaldes if i remember correctly), struck at normal initiative had some saga or the other that gave them bonus attacks, and something that improved their invuln if I recall along with Logan Grimnar attached.

Sure there's a lot of points in there, not doubting that. I assaulted them with ymgarls which normally slice through terminators - didn't kill a singles one ad the unit got wiped in return. I didn't expect them to slice through the unit the same as normal termies, but that was something else!

He plays with 4 HQ's - hence the special rules along with:

Oh these guys are scouts except they are close combat scouts.... with power armour
and these guys outflank whichever side I want them to
and this guy repairs hull points
everything seems to have a saga attached and some sort of necklace or the other, along wit some special weapon.

It might be the way he builds his lists, or the way he explains it, but when he says - and your 235 point unit just fell down a hole - no saves. I'm at breaking point by then having not rolled a die for an hour and a half of listening.