1750 Space Wolves

im not convinced he isnt cheating!

logan grimnar offers +1 attack to those in 18", once per game (similar as the vanilla marine chapter banner/kantor rule), and grants one unit somewhere either fearless, tank hunters,relentless or preferred enemy (again stolen from vanilla amrines). nothing anywhere about inv saves being improved?

also the only sagas that affect anyone other than the specific character are tertiary things like outflank, a buff to wolves, morale reroll if within 6" (which is grimnars FYI)

so not sure how they are getting extra attacks, especially if they are packing frost blades as they arent specialist weapons so cant be paired with another weapon that would grant you an extra cc attack - all they are power swords with a +1S boast for their 15 point premium.

the SW scouts do outflank on any table edge, BUT, they cost the same as marines but have 4+ armour.
One the elite choice iron wolf can have the HP repairing saga, and he cant join any other unit and has only 1 wound so is very vulnerable
the other thing you touch on is the extra HQs - i admit, that is totally ridiculous! i for one would never play that out of principle!

i think your friend has given you a very warped view!

Hobowan wrote:

logan grimnar offers +1 attack to those in 18", once per game (similar as the vanilla marine chapter banner/kantor rule), and grants one unit somewhere either fearless, tank hunters,relentless or preferred enemy (again stolen from vanilla amrines). nothing anywhere about inv saves being improved?

Not quite sure who has what you are talking about there. Unless you are saying that two separate marine special characters from two separate builds (eg fists and raven wing)? Seem to recall Kantor i 12" too without the maorty of the armours and stuff. That said I suspect there is a difference in points. But as I've never played with him it's hard to say.

I always find it weird that I avoid playing special characters with Vanilla to avoid the cheese where possible. Yet on the Eldar I always play with Eldrad. Maybe it's because Eldrad is so useful. Maybe the SM ones are so situational tat you have to build your army around them.

Hobowan wrote:

One the elite choice iron wolf can have the HP repairing saga, and he cant join any other unit and has only 1 wound so is very vulnerable

= techmarine

Perhaps it is a warped view, it's a limited experience i grant you that.

I've noticed a few boo boo's when I've looked stuff up - hurricane bolters aren't 3 twin linked heavy bolters, jaws can't target out of line of sight. I'm convinced there's something being done wrong with the frost weapons as well, it's hard to keep track though when there is so much special this and special that going on, unless you have the army yourself you gotta take it on word or you'll be there for 3 weeks!

I still maintain that their Tactical marines having the same capacity in a fist fight as specialt assault marines is absurd. When we had the team game down here one unit of 10 changed the game when they popped out their rhino.

I've been meaning to go through the book and the FAQ before I went up against him again, but I'm playing him this weekend so I don't htink that's oging to happen! I'm trying to get him to partner with me in the upcoming doubles tournament as anything I'm not picking up those guys will!

I know he's bringing thunderwolf cavalry this time, which I haven't come across but if they are just SM biker equivalents, my MC's will take care of them without too much trouble. I'm using my allcomers tourny list and am hoping I can get Liam to be cameraman to film the whole thing (I am apparently useless at doing this myself) so you can see how it goes as well!

The DA have some similar things with their banners. Hard to explain but they all have different ranges, do different things, multiple banners can be taken (though they are all unique I think). It is quite possible there would be over lap too so imagine how complicated it could be when added to wargear. I was trying to work some out earlier but it just gave me a head ache!

i think its quite a nice feature to have - it allows you to give a tactical slant to otherwise normal units, and moreover develop combos that help keep your army fresh.

without wishing to annoy for example, canis wolfborn has saga of the wolfkin which improves the initiative and leadership of wolves by 1, and my wolf priest has saga of the hunter which allows him (and so his unit) the outflank special rule...it really allows me to formulate a strategy beyond just the normal rules for a unit.

thunderwolf cavalry seem ok Stryph...but i dont think they are that effective...they still only have a 3+ save and 2 wounds for all their fear factor, and are prohibivly expensive - my unit of 4 is about 260 points!
They can also only have 1 special weapon per unit, although they can all take stormshields (though again the price is astronomical). They are generally very low on options.

one the plus side they all have rending attacks, and have 4 attacks each, but like i say, they are vulnerable to shooting and 260 points is alot for 20 S5 AP- rending attacks when you compare to other close combat shock troops. Its good, but not amazing.

Their only special rule beyond the norm is they allow fenrisian wolves within 12" to reroll leadership.
So again this is where the combos come in...instead of wolves having Ld 6, if you put them near thunderwolf cavalry with a character with saga of the wolfkin, that becomes Ld7 rerollable. Or put canis near them and they can use his Ld of 8 instead (still rerollable)

Not amazing, but its a nice little combo to build!

Thats sounds like quite a lot of awesomeness to me. Given they must be a fast choice as well and likely count as fast cavalry?

I think on the charge that would give them hammer of wrath plus 5 attacks each? Thats quite some charge when you add rending. And they are toughness 5 which is a nice bonus too. The wolves would sound like a nice shield as well. I'm not sure off the top of my head but, as they are units (not vehicles) and don't count as MC's. wouldn't they therefore get a 5+ cover too? Do the mounts get attacks like horses in fantasy?

Out of pure interest what other shock close comabt troops are you talking about? There is nothing in the Eldar army that can compete on the charge or otherwise. Nothing that I can think of in the space marine codex's either - maybe a command squad on bikes? They could get T5 3+ save with the coverbut Im sure they only get a base 2 attacks, so 4 each on the charge. And that unit would cost a lot more and only have one wound each

hmmmm with S5 i don't fancy getting an MC anywhere near them.... Stealers might hurt them, but odds are they aren't getting into combat with them in the first place - not enough to make it worthwhile anyway...

I don't think nids have anything that would actually win in cc, maybe the swarmlord or an Iron arm toting tervigon, have to be iron arm'd or he'd be dead before he struck.

BA might fair a bit better v saguinary guard both side would probably end up wiping each other out or at least crippling each other beyond reason, otherwise there's Meph - he's still awesoe as log as it's not 2+ armour he's going up against!

Looking at the dark angel side the death knights would be similarish in cc - 2 attacks base (no bonuses for weapons) at str 6 with 2+ 3++, but they have no shooting and no flexibility. Plus they cost around the same. I'd say it was a pretty mean death star unit!

ok, so im trying to move away from the wolf hate here and back to my list:

after a soul search, i decided my fluff is an advancing pack advancing on their prey, picking off stray members of the herd from the flanks and rear.

I figured long fangs didnt really fit into this fluff, and were in there for gaming reasons - not because they are awesome, which they clearly are, but becuase they are the only non-vehicular heavy support, and i couldnt bring vehicles, and even with my orks i cant live without some fire support.
So, in for a penny, in for a pound - out they go to make way for more a more fluffy list, that i think mimics the way a wolf pack hunts

ive copied this from the roster editor, which conveiently gives away some of the profiles and ive added rules too for your awareness too

HQ (338pts)

Canis Wolfborn (205pts)
rending, wolves within 12" use his leadership and have +1 Init. base attacks can be = number of enemies in base to base
2 x wolf claws, saga of the wolfkin, 2x Fenrisian Wolf (20pts)

Wolf Priest (133pts)
(chaplain) preferred enemy & fearless to unit, unit can outflank
Crozius Arcanum, Fang of Morkai, Runic Armour (20pts), Saga of the Hunter (10pts), Storm Bolter (3pts), Wolf Amulet

Elites (409pts)

Lone Wolf (95pts)
counter attack, fearless, eternal warrior, feel no pain, beastslayer, cant join units, no VP if killed, VP given if lives
Chainfist (15pts), 2x Fenrisian Wolf (20pts), Terminator Armour (25pts), Wolf Claw (15pts)

Wolf Guard Pack (199pts)
counter attack, acute senses, any model may split from the unti to lead another unit as a character
Wolf Guard A (48pts) - blood claws
Power Fist (10pts), Terminator Armour (15pts), Wolf Claw (5pts)
Wolf Guard B (68pts) - scouts
Assault Cannon (30pts), Terminator Armour (15pts), Wolf Claw (5pts)
Wolf Guard C (83pts) - grey hunters
Cyclone Missile Launcher (30pts), Storm Shield (15pts), Terminator Armour (15pts), Wolf Claw (5pts)

Wolf Scouts (115pts)
acute senses, counter attack, Behind Enemy Lines - from reserve, 1 is left, 2 is right, 3+ any table edge, Move Through Cover
5x Wolf Scout (115pts)
2x Boltgun (0), 5x Close Combat Weapon (0), Meltagun (10pts), 2x Plasma Pistol (30pts)

Troops (747pts)

Blood Claws Pack (230pts)
acute senses, counter attack, beserk charge - +2A on charge (reckless not counted as led by wolf guard)
15x Blood Claw (225pts), Meltagun (5pts), Plasma Gun

Fenrisian Wolf Pack (Troops) (104pts)
beast rule set, counter attack cant hold objectives
1x Cyberwolf (16pts), 11x Fenrisian Wolf (88pts)

Fenrisian Wolf Pack (Troops) (128pts)
beast rule set, counter attack, cant hold objectives
1x Cyberwolf (16pts), 14x Fenrisian Wolf (112pts)

Grey Hunters Pack (105pts)
acute senses, counter attack,
Flamer, 7x Grey Hunter (105pts)

Grey Hunters Pack (180pts)
acute senses, counter attack,
10x Grey Hunter (150pts), Mark of the Wulfen (15pts), Meltagun (5pts), Plasma Gun, Wolf Standard (10pts)

Fast Attack (255pts)

Thunderwolf Cavalry (255pts)
cavalry rule set, wolfkin - fen wolves within 12" can reroll Ld tests, acute senses, counter attack, rending in cc
Thunderwolf Cavalry A (50pts)
Bolt Pistol
Thunderwolf Cavalry B (55pts)
Mark of the Wulfen (5pts),
Bolt Pistol
Thunderwolf Cavalry C (70pts)
Wolf Claw (20pts)
Bolt Pistol
Thunderwolf Cavalry D (80pts)
Storm Shield (30pts)

Profile Summary:

Name Unit Type WS BS S T W I A LD Save
Canis W IC 5 2 5 5 3 5 5 8 3+
Blood Claws Infantry 3 3 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
Fen Wolf Beast 4 0 4 4 1 4(5) 2 5( 6+
cyberwolf Beast 4 0 4 5 1 4(5) 3 6( 4+
Grey Hunter Infantry 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
Lone Wolf Infantry 5 4 4 4 2 4 2 8 3+
Thunderwolf Cavalry 4 4 5 5 2 4 4 8 3+
Wolf Guard Infantry 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+
Wolf Priest Infantry 5 4 4 4 2 4 2 10 3+/4++
Wolf Scouts Infantry 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 4+


The strengths are obvious and discussed. The weaknesses are as i see it:
- low Ld across the board
- no ranged ability to speak of
- low on units, especially with 2 in reserve/outflanking

Fingers crossed no flaming occurs

Looks like a decent list. Will definitely have to push forward quickly but has quite a few bodies thrown in so appears quite survivable. I know you said no vehicles, but I do think a couple of razorbacks/rhinos or a drop pod does fit in - imagine the cavalry and wolves moving towards the forward position held by the scouts and blood claws. One signal and he grey hunters drop pod or scream in on their razorbacks/rhino. You could always fluff it out by bringing them on as reserves.

vehicles would have solved many problems, but they just dont fit the wolf pack theme

too bad i couldnt bring solely wolves....id die horribly, and would lose every game as wolves cant hold objectives, but it would be fluffy!

i know previous comments concentrate on their offense, but i do still worry about thunderwolf survivability, and the wolf themselves are just glorified orks, so a small unit such as 12 & 15 scares the bejesus out of me!

Welcome, to a new army

I have the same survivability questionmark over my Necrons. I'm too used to having either little guys in droves where they die and you just don't care or big guys with high toughness and lots of wounds. Sure the crons can get back up again but my list is mainly guys with a 4+ save. Had a small game with them thee other day against a really basic BA list I wrote to teach someone how to play 40k with - the whirlwind large blast was absolutely brutal!!! And I learnt glancing any vehicle sounds great but I don't roll many 6's...

It's a learning curve getting a new army Orks/nids are pretty different playstyle to all the other armies as everyone else has to worry about stuff getting killed in a way we really aren't used to! We're both doing fluffy armies as opposed to power type lists as well so I think we're both going to be suffering from quite a steep learning curve!!

Not just you guys though - rellik and clappers will need to learn to play with four or five timwles the models and my entire army has less than 20 wounds.....

I concur completely - in one swoop and 2 troops I have more figures than I have of my knights!